2 Peter 3:16 AMP
«speaking about these things as he does in all of his letters. In which there are some things that are difficult to understand, which the untangled and unstable [who have fallen into error] twist and misinterpret, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.»
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Down below the next horizontal-line I respond to my friend's quote from the BibleBot of John 3:16 ESV
John 3:16 - English Standard Version (ESV)
«For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.»
Note : the wording should be «that whoever believes in Him (God)» rather than «believes in him (the man; Yeshua ben Joseph)»
Make sure not to mis-interpret the meaning of that verse; I allude to Matthew 7:13-14 NLT in response; the free gift was the message sent unto humanity via God's favourite boy after all; Note that the word «path» (at least in other versions/translations of this passage which use this word) refers to actions, interactions, etc., rather than a «belief» alone...
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Matthew 7:13-14 - New Living Translation (NLT)
«13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.»
Luke 15:7 NIV
«I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.»
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«A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals.» -Fyodor Dostoevsky
«...bars can't build better men and misery can only break what goodness remains.» -Stuart Turton
«People who are not fully enlightened have no business becoming parents. This contradicts the conventionally accepted notion that people have an inherent "right" to have children. They do not. People who have a compulsion to traumatize a child, even in the mildest forms, are breaking the child’s human rights.» -Daniel Mackler (granted, not everybody may agree with this, but, disregarding another's rights, just because they are a child is not much different than «de-humanising» them...)
«Not every story has a happy ending, … but the discoveries of science, the teachings of the heart, and the revelations of the soul all assure us that no human being is ever beyond redemption. The possibility of renewal exists so long as life exists.» -Gabor Maté
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Rehabilitation, not punishment, happens to be the Godly answer; rehabilitate... rather than punish... perceived offenders.
Reminds me of the Advance Peace programme where DeVone Boggan (did I spell his name correctly) came up with a programme that actually worked to significantly reduce the very high homicide-rate at Richmond, California, tracked over a decade-long period (I first learned of this in a May 2016CE Edition of Reader's Digest).
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Matthew 20:16 KJV
«So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.»
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Wealth and Social-Status are irrelevant to God anyway as far as Heaven-Worthiness is Concerned;
And Superficial Social-Status = Buying Things You Don't Need With Money You Don't Have In Order to Impress People You Don't Like
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Matthew 7:13-14 NLT
«13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.»
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Life is already Eternal; the difference is in whether that life will be Eternally in God's Grace or Eternally via the Wrath of God; Proverbs 9:10 NLT and Romans 1:18 ESV. And I need to explain the whole entire «via Grace thou art saved» versus «Faith without works is Dead» debacle that still seems to confound humanity; I have the full-context behind what they mean which I will be describing next after this...
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Proverbs 9:10 - New Living Translation (NLT)
«Fear of the Lord is the foundation of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One results in good judgment.»
Romans 1:18 - English Standard Version (ESV)
«For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.»
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One is «saved» from eternal on-going suffering as long as one stops sinning; the whole entire theme of Jesus' ministries revolved around telling everybody to «stop sinning» and «now go and sin no more» and «turn away from your sins» and essentially withdraw all support from being complicit to iniquity; I have already quoted from Galatians 6:7 KJV in that All do Reap what they Sow; the wording and phrasing of the word «works» refers to «good deeds» which is not the same thing as repenting (i.e. : cessation of sinning), but, I still need to de-mystify the context here...
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Galatians 6:7 - King James Version (KJV)
«Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.»
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That de-mystification will require me to use an example; for example, should any child of God be a dis-obedient child of God (all of us are children of God by the way), such that they have been complicit to say 15K$US worth of thefts or causing losses upon others from the eternal-time of the beginning of their eternal-existence, then, via God's Infinite-Justice, they are required to experience that 15K$US worth of being stolen from or equivalent losses (including all of the collateral-suffering that was associated with the initial sin or sins in question), but, because God is never «unfair» and is simultaneously «infinitely merciful» (also requires additional context), once that particular «sinner» stops stealing, and, has sufferred through all and every last drop of «suffering» (in the «theft» category) that they had been complicit to unto others, and, does not retaliate, but, instead, forgives, then that particular repentant-sinner then gains «Divine-Protection» (from God) from ever being «stolen from» ever again for as long as they are no longer complicit to any amount «thefts» upon others (Note : Taxation is Theft; stop paying Extortionist Tax-Collectors). Now I still need to move onto and explain the next part about «works» (i.e. : good deeds) and how and why they do not «erase» (or Balance the Eternal Scales-of-Justice) for one's past-complicity to sinning...
James 2:20 NKJV. Alright, now, when it comes to doing any «works» (good deeds), such «works» (good deeds) in of themselves do not and are not what takes one to heaven (which requires one to make an earnest effort to stop sinning and to stop being complicit to iniquity), BUT, the «works» are needed for one to receive «blessings» (which is not the same thing as being «saved» by the way). And, the reason behind the passage about how «works are like dirty rags before the LORD» in its full-context involves, for example, the case of the thief that I used as an example above; IF this «thief» who still has a «15K$US worth of thefts» debt unto God for having stolen which has not yet been accounted for, like I mentioned, All Reap What They Sow, and, there is absolutely NO amount of «work» that the said Thief can do in order to «nullify» nor avoid his (or her) «fate» that he (or she) will be «stolen from» under God's Karmic/Spiritual-Law of «You will experience what you and your servants cause others to experience on a equal and thus eye-for-an-eye and tooth-for-a-tooth basis» (reap what one sows), so, IF that «thief» were to TRY to suddenly go about «donating to charity» (good works) or «volunteering to help the needy» (more good works) in order to remove or erase that «spiritual-mark» upon them (not a physical-mark; this is actually an invisible-mark, whether be it upon the fore-head, wrist, etc.), then he (or she) is fruitlessly trying to «unbrand» itself from being a past «thief» but, for as far as the Eternal Book-of-Life Spiritual-Records are concerned, that particular being's past-thefts still remain «unaccounted for» until which time they experience what they have caused others to experience (i.e. : theft of their goods/property, being stolen from, all of the resulting collateral-suffering, etc.), and, NO amount of «works» (good deeds) will prevent those «being stolen from» or «thefts» upon them from eventually manifesting...
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James 2:20 - New King James Version (NKJV)
«But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?»
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So there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between doing «works» (good deeds) which are related to and are for blessings, and, NOT salvation; how-ever, one's «salvation» (from being made to experience on-going eternal-suffering) requires one to stop sinning; the halting and cessation of sinning is not «works» (good deeds) nor actions (or inter-actions) being done by you; true repentance simply means Heeding God's Call of Peace Unto All that must be heeded to all who aspire to reach the True Promised Land; also, note, that, when you see Him in all-capital-lettres as written by past-scribes, that is referring to God, God directly, rather than the «Avatar» known as Yeshua ben Joseph or more-popularly known as Jesus; as the Voluntary Successor to the very returned (but now also retired) Messiah himself, who has already come and gone like a Thief in the Night by the way (ref 2 Peter 3:10 ASV.), I am fully privy to full-context behind passages like 2 Peter 3:16 NIV and Matthew 23:13 NIV which is still a lot of daunting and remaining work for me to still need to clarify so that the full-context-truth can be available to seekers of Pure-Truth and God's uncontaminated Wisdom.
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2 Peter 3:10 - American Standard Version (ASV)
«But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.»
2 Peter 3:16 - New International Version (NIV)
«He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.»
Matthew 23:13 - New International Version (NIV)
«Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.»
I respond to when Denis replied : «That isn't completely wrong, but not completely accurate. As we all know that mankind is UNABLE to be sinless.»
Even if man believeth things to be impossible, consider how heavier-than-air-flying machines were once considered impossible, continents floating were also considered to be impossible, faster-than-horse courrier was also impossible, invisible forces that they eye cannot see being responsible for sickness and disease was also impossible or at least absurd (this is related to medical-history where «blood-letting» was the «state-of-the-art» medical-treatment of the day in the medical-industry), instantaneous-communications around the world was impossible, pictures that move was impossible, sound being re-produced without a ventriloquist was impossible, etc.
Related passage to impossibility : Matthew 19:23-26 NKJV
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Matthew 19:23-26 - New King James Version (NKJV)
«23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."»
Mark 10:23-25 NLT
«23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”»
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The «Law» (God's Law) remains immutable; nor am I going to teach nor encourage people to not try; if I go about teaching people that they are already saved and that there is nothing that they need to do (or rather stop doing) then it simply sends the wrong message, particularly if they are in a situation where they are tempted to sin, such as witnessing people in front of them whilst they are carrying a machine-gun, the «rationalisation» that then would go into their MIND would be along the lines of «welp, I am already saved anyway, and, because I am mad at all of those people, and, want my revenge, I guess it's okay if I just shoot them all» rather than containing their «sinful» anger and desires to continue sinning (via shooting them all and taking «revenge» rather than being forgiving). Romans 12:19 ESV.
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Romans 12:19 - English Standard Version (ESV)
«Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."»
Dialogue with my Friend continues...
Denis :
Absolutely correct.
Scripturally, its not our place to avenge ourselves
Its our place to pray for them, and possibly try to save the innocent if we can, but definitely not take God's law into our own hand.
Me :
We've gone over a lot of information already and have already covered how they need to be rehabilitated (rather than punished).
All of the context is here so it would be good to save these dialogues for future-references & for full-context-availability.
Denis :
Yes, but there isn't as much scripture on it. Its why the catholics came out with concept of purgatory. There is some scripture to support that, but also its very ambiguious. Not sure what I think tbh
Me :
Not everything in «scripture» was written down nor would fit into merely only one book or even collection of books that are as small as the «bible» itself which is literally only a TINY snap-shot of the fullness of God. See John 21:25.
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John 21:25 - Revised Standard Version (RSV)
«But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.»
Note : This also applies to his teachings.
Our dialogue still continues...
Denis : Correct. Which is why we do find manuscripts at time that aren't part of it... and predate the bible, yet find Jesus quoting from it.
Lost manuscripts is definitely something I do believe in, but I approach it with a grain of salt, and letting the Holy Spirit guide me on this heavily
Me :
Holy Spirit is simply the Light (Love-Aspect) of God which is always in the category of Peaceful, Loving, Kind, Compassionate, Forgiving, Merciful, Benevolent, Generous, Truthful, Honest, Caring, Creative, Educative, etc.; it is the exact opposite of the Traits of the Dark which are War-Mongering, Violent, Angry, Aggressive, Hateful, Spiteful, Vengeful, Unforgiving, Merciless, Malevolent, Unkind, Greedy, Arrogant, Vain, Dishonest, Callous, Destructive, Punitive, etc.; it's very simple to recognise whether you are «heeding the Holy Spirit» in both your thoughts and actions; they are literally Polar-Opposites in terms of the Grace/Light/Love versus the Fallen/Dark/Hate, etc.
Denis :
Its also the "inside voice" that God uses to communicate directly with us
Sometimes, God doesn't tell us directly, because He knows in His infinite wisdom we are not ready yet. So He soften's the ground, and guides us there slowly. Because the goal/destination is our direction, but walking the path is what we need to be doing, He wants THAT relationship with us
Me :
You can easily «hear» that «voice» for as long as you do not «cloud» that inner-light of yours with darkness, with sin (i.e. : negative-emotions), and, when I use the word sin, just as when Yeshua ben Joseph used the word sin, a distinction needs to be made between sin as a noun (contamination) versus sin as a verb (actions/activities), and, similarly to how one who is contaminated or under the influence of a great volume of alcohol and/or drugs causes them to behave in rather irrational-manners, the greater the volume (contamination-amount) of sin within oneself, the greater their likelihood of «sinning» against others (particularly when faced with adversity), and, sinning also happens to increase the volume of sin that «contaminates» one's spirit-soul; Related reference : Matthew 15:11-20 ESV.
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Matthew 15:11-20 - English Standard Version (ESV)
«11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person." 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" 13 He answered, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit." 15 But Peter said to him, "Explain the parable to us." 16 And he said, "Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone."»
Our discussion comes to a close with the following dialogue...
Denis :
Correct, we ALL can hear it, just many tune it out saddly
Im happy you understand the difference between sin (contamination) and the action. As they are different indeed.
Me :
I certainly do hope that my attempts at clarifications behind the full-context(s) of things have been clear; some parts of it I realise may be a bit of what might be preaching to the choir but I am also trying to make sure the full-and-thorough full-context-understanding is available; and, obviously, I am able to clearly quote from the book itself quite proficiently, something that I have noticed is an absolute-necessity when it comes to trying to convince Evangelicals and/or Fundamentalists of anything.
Anyway, whilst it is nice to have such wisdom-filled dialogue, I am need to tend to other matters, for now.
Denis :
I do enjoy this type of conversation, while it may not always look like it, I ruminate on a lot of it, and it does affect my thinking. I am far from perfect, and wisdom tells me I can learn from many people.
So I want to be clear, I don't have the final answer. Im still a work in progress in my learning. And each day I hope to learn more and more, and travel the road the best I can.
I haven't had many indepth conversations with people with deep knowledge on the subject, and its good to have an exchange of idea's, I believe its beneficial to us both
Alright, ttyl my friend!
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This ended up being an additional-passage that I had transcribed which was from a screen-shot of when I was trying to demonstrate to my friend Denis how BibleBot worked in Discord which occurred prior to our dialogue/discussion.
Matthew 7:16-23 KJV
«16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.»
The rest of these should be treated like something along the lines of rolling credits such as at the end of some movie...
John 21:25 NIV
«Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.»
John 3:16 ESV
«For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.»
Galatians 6:7 NIV
«Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.»
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
«22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.»
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Additional recommended reading...
https://www.farsightprime.com/forums/general/68538-what-to-do-with-the-actually-bad-prisoners
The returned (re-incarnated) but now retired Messiah (Imam Al-Mahdi) writes to «Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship Australia» with some rather harsh criticisms (for today's religious-insitutions are essentially modern-day Pharisees)
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